The Courage to Grow: Finding Your Voice in Procurement

Speaker 0[0:06]Welcome to ProcureAbility's Procurement Pathways, a journey into the dynamic world of procurement told through the voices of its most trusted leaders. Here every story, every lesson, and every hard-won insight reveal how personal passion fuels professional impact. And how those moments, taken together, shape the future of our field. I'm your host, Stacy Jocelyn. Welcome to part two of our interview with Kelly Barner, co-founder and head of content and operations for Art of Procurement.

Speaker 0[0:40]I just think this is such an important topic, especially today, because some of these non-traditional procurement skills, I'm using air quotes here, are becoming so, you know, more and more pivotal every day as the function continues to evolve. And experience like yours, experience like the car mechanic, that was a great example, right? Having the ability to hold a five-year-old's attention for 30 minutes, that's huge.

Speaker 0[1:10]And being able to storytell in front of a room of executives. And I think there's a quid pro quo here, too, that leadership needs to recognize that not everybody's gift is going to fit within the JED that's provided. So just like an employee has to be open-minded about what's next, a leader has to say, okay, maybe you're not right for this, but look at the gifts that you have.

Speaker 1[1:36]Yes. And you also can't assume, you can't look at a person and assume anything about them. Right. So I'm a middle-aged white lady from New England, and I have graduate level education. If you were to say to somebody, okay, what do you think her favorite sport is? What would it be? Tennis, golf, being super stereotypical here, right?

Speaker 1[2:08]Yeah. Um, we have to say World Cup because everybody's now a big World Cup fan, because it's like the latest, whatever. Probably not on anybody's top 10 would be NASCAR. And really a massive NASCAR fan. I'm a huge car person, right? And so you just some amount of assumption is required for us to function with groups of people at scale.

Speaker 1[2:32]But when you get on an individual level with somebody, don't assume you know what kind of book they read. Don't assume you know how they spend their weekend. Don't assume anything about the work they are going to turn in. There's there's always pieces we talk about, you know, bringing our whole selves to work. Look, everybody has stuff they hold back.

Speaker 1[2:53]And sometimes it's a good thing. It's that's not always a bad thing, right? Not everything should go to work. But there are aspects of every individual that haven't been uncovered or leveraged that actually kind of offer quite a bit. And if you get a leader or a manager that's willing to active listening, notice the details, pick up on something that's unique about a person, that's when you get the opportunity to change how your whole team runs.

Speaker 1[3:20]Because you're looking at every single person and you're seeing them as an individual and you're connecting with them as an individual, setting them up for opportunities that leverage everything they bring to the table. You know, I just think it's such a mistake to assume anything about anybody ever. And what's more powerful than asking somebody, tell me more about you.

Speaker 1[3:44]You know, and you don't want to be overly broad, because if you say, like, oh, how are you? Everybody's gonna say fine, you know, but take those opportunities, find the time, learn about someone personally, because not only might you learn something about them you wouldn't have expected, you might find something that you connect with. And all of a sudden, oh my gosh, I'm a NASCAR fan too.

Speaker 1[4:07]Okay, well, now we've connected on a whole new level. We have a whole new range of things to talk about. Um, I think we all should be regarded as individuals. And I think back to your question about hiring or trying to get promoted, a system that stops recognizing people as individuals is a broken system.

unknown[4:25]Right.

Speaker 1[4:25]And if people aren't going to listen to, oh, you know, what's unique about this person or what might this person bring to the role? You can't do it with everybody, but once you get to your short list, give people a shot. Give people a shot to feel like they had an opportunity to come in and make their case.

Speaker 0[4:42]Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes quiet means deep. Some of the most deep people I've ever known are also some of the quietest, the most introspective. They keep the, you know, they keep themselves to themselves a lot, more introverts, but they're deep. I have to I have to share this story. When I was in college, Spanish class, we had some people who were very, you know, chatty, you know, you had to offer certain times in the semester where you got downgraded, right?

Speaker 0[5:13]And there was a woman in Karen in my classes, very quiet, super duper quiet. And we had some others who every class, you know, just talkie, talkie, talkie. One day, Karen decided, okay, today's the day I've got to offer. And this is a conversation class, right? And she starts talking. Her Spanish was perfect, zero American accent, completely fluid, was the most beautiful Spanish of anybody in the class, right?

Speaker 0[5:41]Including some of the native speakers. It was it was gorgeous. She had lived in Peru and was a completely native speaker. But she didn't talk about it. She didn't promote it, she didn't motivate, you know? And that was a huge lesson to me that just because somebody doesn't tout or flout their capabilities doesn't mean they don't have them.

Speaker 1[6:02]Yeah. No, absolutely. And I'm sure after everyone picked their jaws up off the floor, people the positive reinforcement, I'm sure, was through the roof. Yeah.

Speaker 0[6:12]Exact, exactly. Exactly. But still, it wasn't a hey, look at me thing. It was just right. This is humility. It was humility. And I just I there was a huge lesson in that of doing versus saying I can do. Um I want to pivot a little bit and talk about the books because you just mentioned, again, humility, right?

Speaker 0[6:31]Just like side comment in the second book that I wrote. So tell us about your books.

Speaker 1[6:40]So I've co-authored three. Um, none of the three was actually my idea. I was sort of second chair on every book. Um, the first one was actually, so I co-authored it with Jeanette Jones. Believe it or not, there's two procurement professionals with library science degrees. I have since found out there's four that I know. So believe it or not, like two crazy areas you wouldn't expect to overlap.

Speaker 1[7:06]Um, and it's market research for procurement professionals. And it's basically takes you through the resources, the process, and everything that you need to if you're going to go research some category. You know, how do you approach it? What are the sources you go to? How do you present the results? Um, the second book I co-authored with John Hansen, Procurement at a Crossroads, kind of looking at how the profession has changed, you know, not necessarily from, you know, the railroads to the digital age, but, you know, what was the difference between purchasing and procurement?

Speaker 1[7:38]It's very different, right? The skills required are different. Uh, the relationship with the rest of the company is different. And then the third book, a little bit different, uh, Finance Unleashed. It's a book I co-authored with a gentleman named Magnus Lind. Um, he's probably the only other person, other than Phil, that I connected with so deeply, straight on a phone call in like 45 minutes or less.

Speaker 1[8:04]We had a blast writing that book. And that one's fun because there's a lot of interviews that go into it. And so you get to read uh different perspectives. It's it's really about the financial supply chain and how money moves and how supplier relationships, therefore, work out. Um, and that's it, it's actually another one of those scary stories.

Speaker 1[8:26]So the first two books that I wrote were published by Jay Ross. I felt like it was really important to have a publisher. And part of that is based on when I wrote the books. It is different now, but at the time, self-published, it just was not the same. It wasn't a fully formed idea. So when we wanted to write this book, we went back to the same publisher and it wasn't gonna work out.

Speaker 1[8:48]We went to a second publisher, and the second publisher was like, Yeah, but it needs to be at least this many pages. And we're like, ugh. I mean, we basically already'd written the book. And the thought was first of all, this is for an executive audience. This is a C-level directed book. They want to read something they can finish on the plane from here to there.

Speaker 1[9:09]They don't want to tote around war and peace for six months until it's all dog-eared and finished. So we're like, no, we're very confident this is the right length for the book. They're like, well, just stick transcripts or whatever at the back, it'll fill the pages. And we had a very in-depth conversation. And we basically decided, no, if we're just jamming filler at the back of the book, this is not the right situation.

Speaker 1[9:32]We walked away from the publisher. Now, if people have not published a book, you don't walk away from a publisher. If a publisher's willing to talk to you, if they can remember your name, you basically just do what they say. Basically, yeah. This is not right. And we ended up, because we had said no, we made some other outreach.

Speaker 1[9:54]And in the end, Paul Grave McMillan published the book instead of the publisher that we were talking to. It was definitely a step up, but it was another one of those situations where we had to be more focused on our convictions than being opportunistic. And it's very hard to walk away because that might have been the end of the book.

Speaker 1[10:12]And it worked itself out. So those are the three books that I've published. For anybody that ever sees me on camera, uh, they're behind me with actually one of Phil's favorite books, The World is Flat by Thomas Friedman. That's one of one of his favorite. Um, so definitely a part of my journey. Not something you do to make money.

Speaker 1[10:33]You don't make money writing a book, especially if you're writing a procurement B2B technical book. Um, but still, it was all part of that journey of learning how to manage major content projects and project manage myself and stay on time and hit deadlines and follow all the details and things that had to be taken care of. Every single one of those things was part of my training journey.

Speaker 0[10:55]And again, you're stretching yourself. In any every one of these examples, there's been a consistent theme in every one. One, you say you use logic, and I do think there's still, you know, there's guts involved in actually taking the logic forward, but you're following your gut, you're embracing the unknown, and you're doing something because you feel that it's right and and you're pulling on some skill set that you have that you want to nurture.

Speaker 0[11:27]I think that's that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1[11:31]And you have to be uncomfortable. You have to be uncomfortable. If you can't be uncomfortable, don't write a book, don't start a podcast, don't start your own company, right? But also if you can't be uncomfortable, you're gonna have issues in your personal life too. So we're all in a different place around comfort with discomfort. Um, but it to me, again, sort of like we talked about building up the callus on feedback, building up your ability to tolerate discomfort and healthy discomfort.

Speaker 1[11:59]I don't, I don't mean, you know, taking verbal abuse, you know, no jerks, right? But learn to be uncomfortable, it is such a critical survival skill.

Speaker 0[12:09]And I think you can do it, you know, when we talk about like my other hat is in the wellness field, and when you talk about like bite-sized changes, you know, if you're gonna change your diet, you don't just go whole hog to uh uh Dwayne the Rock Johnson grilled chicken diet. Grimm's laughing. You you take it bit by bit, right?

Speaker 0[12:27]And maybe that's the same with discomfort for somebody who is more comfortable with a structured, uh regimented, you know, ritualized life.

Speaker 1[12:38]Yep.

Speaker 0[12:38]You take one little thing and make that your unknown, and it's just a bite.

Speaker 1[12:42]Yeah. And it's a starting point.

Speaker 0[12:44]It's a starting point. Yeah, 100%. Before I get to our final question, I have a secondary final question. Um, this is such fun. What's next for you? I know we have, you know, AOP and it's everything's going beautifully there. What's your next area of kind of new that you want to dip your toes into?

Speaker 1[13:06]Oh gosh. Stacy, I don't have time. What's next? What's what's next? I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's so it's two things. One is that as AOP has grown, and as let's say my role within the team has come into focus, there's been new stuff I had to either learn or relearn. So my title, head of content and and operations, um, the operational piece of that, I visualize my day as a million spinning plates, and there's like marbles on them.

Speaker 1[13:43]There are so many moving pieces and things keep changing. Yeah. But I take it personally not to let the details drop. If if you're someone we do a small project with and you say to me, look, the person we're having do this podcast is not a native English speaker. It's very important to me that we get to pre-approve all of the quotes attributed to this person.

Speaker 1[14:03]That detail does not get lost. Our project management system, shout out to ClickUp. God love this thing. I mean, we push it, like sometimes rivets start to pop out. Every detail, every handoff, every date, every status, like no man left behind, right? And that's even when uh we joke sometimes. I I adore my team. Um, anybody that's ever been to Pike's place market in Seattle, you know, they throw the fish and like you catch the fish.

Speaker 1[14:34]That's kind of the analogy we use for what it looks like behind the scenes, really busy times. So, what I'm always looking for, though, is how do I continue to hold the details while allowing for scale and not letting the quality to drop? It means constantly revisiting the system with fresh eyes, taking in new ideas and keeping that quality up, kind of staying focused on the things that really matter versus, well, this is the way we've always done it.

Speaker 1[15:04]So I'm constantly challenging myself, and that has nothing to do with working and procurement, right? Being an operator, I've had to completely learn how to take my own charming OCD ways and scale those and build a system so that other people can work within that. Um, I would say the other thing I'm already doing somewhat, but for me, it's like the the next big opportunity for us as a group to make bigger is um okay, callback point.

Speaker 1[15:34]I mentioned earlier I found my love for supply chain while I was working at Conway. I've never walked away from that. So most people know us for the Art of Procurement podcast, but we also have art of supply. And it's like my own little innovation kitchen where I get to pick whatever stories I want and cover them from any perspective.

Speaker 1[15:54]And I do my very best to handle some very challenging and polarizing things in a fact-based way that is still storytelling and is still analytical. But I think moving into that, you know, as procurement functionally moves closer and closer to operations and supply chain, how do I make sure Art of Procurement gets to keep doing that too?

Speaker 1[16:15]And so sort of leaning into who do I know in this space and purposefully building up that community and that line of content. Um, that's some of the content that I'm most excited about because you literally never know week to week what's the headline going to be. And sometimes you read a headline and all you can think is, oh no, they didn't.

Speaker 1[16:36]And it's crazy who bought who or who traded what or who broke some rule or what new rule is now in place. There's never a dull moment. Um, and I find myself energized by those stories and the people that I meet in that space. And it challenges me. I had to figure out what on earth stable coins are to have a conversation with the CEO of a company that's using them for cross-border payments the other week.

Speaker 1[17:01]Okay, I don't know what stable coins are, but I can figure it out and I know who can teach me, this guy I'm talking to. So it's, you know, continuing to be uncomfortable in a way that creates content so that I can allow my discomfort to help other people to get foundational understanding of stuff that they don't have the access to people to learn from that I might because of the show.

Speaker 1[17:25]Um, so I don't have time for either of those things, frankly. But those are those are my priorities in terms of like not necessarily a turn in the road, um, but making sure the road continues on to the horizon and nothing ever gets stale. Um, just there's always something to learn. There's always something better you can do, and you can never rest on what you did yesterday.

Speaker 1[17:50]It does not matter, we are the number one procurement podcast in the world. That matters not at all to the CPO that hasn't heard of us yet, and we don't know where they're gonna meet us. So constantly staying humble and being willing to push. To me, that's every single day we get up and that's the mission. Every single day.

Speaker 1[18:07]Also Saturdays and Sundays, but always, always pushing forward, right? And continuing to love what we do because I think people can feel it when you stop enjoying it. And then that's that's how you know it's time to go do something else.

Speaker 0[18:22]And they absolutely do. We absolutely do. When we listen to the podcast, we can tell that you love what you do and you're doing something that's of benefit to everybody.

Speaker 1[18:33]I genuinely appreciate the opportunity to talk about not only some of these things I haven't shared, but things I haven't thought about in a long time. It's nice to kind of go down memory road and and revisit some of these things. Um, but Noah, I've wholeheartedly enjoyed the conversation. Um, I I appreciate being a guest. It's kind of neat being on the other side of things and just getting to like blah, blah, blah, blah, this thing happened to me.

Speaker 1[18:56]Oh, yeah. But super grateful for the opportunity to join you, Stacy, and to have the conversation.

Speaker 0[19:01]Absolutely. Well, the last question that I have for you then, and this has just been an absolute delight for me to learn more about you and get to know you on this level. And thank you for just your candor and everything today. Um, the last question that we always ask in this podcast is what is one nugget of wisdom that you've gained in your pathway that can help another practitioner, professional person on their own?

Speaker 1[19:28]This is gonna be so cheesy. Do I get demerits if it's cheesy? Never. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 1[19:36]You you have to believe in yourself. And and that's not like, I'm not expecting that everybody listening to this is gonna go start a business or try to become a rock star or you know, or anything. But you have to know who you are, you have to know who you're not. You have to be willing to revisit both things as you grow and you change and you you mature.

Speaker 1[19:59]But if you don't believe in yourself, uh you can't ask anybody else to. And and that could just be simply based on I'm gonna have a conversation. I don't know, some days I'm talking to six or eight people I've never talked to before. I don't know what kind of day those people are having. I don't know where they are.

Speaker 1[20:17]I don't even know if they know why they're meeting me. Sometimes I get into meetings with people that they ask to schedule and they're like, hey, I'm just gonna be honest. I have no idea who you are or why I'm talking to you. Like, it's okay. I got your back. I know who you are, and I know why you asked to talk to me, but I also know who I am.

Speaker 1[20:35]And so I know what I'm bringing to this conversation. So don't try to be somebody else. Don't try to be a thing that you can't sustain. It has to be natural. But you you absolutely have to have confidence that even if it's, I'm just gonna be the nicest person someone else talks to today, but it's gonna be authentic.

Speaker 1[20:56]You can build a career on that. You can build a life on that. Just, gosh, just be authentic. And and anybody that I've prepped for any of our content stuff will probably be rolling their eyes right now. I've said it so many times. Look at the questions we send you. Think about your answers, give us feedback, ask us questions, right?

Speaker 1[21:16]Push back and then throw it away. Don't put sticky notes on your laptop. Do not think you're gonna hide a script that's not gonna fall over and cross your camera and everybody's gonna know it was there. Don't think my mic is not gonna pick up the sound of you shuffling papers. Believe in yourself. Put yourself out there on a topic that you can be authentic on.

Speaker 1[21:37]People will love you. It really is that simple. But you got to start by knowing who you are and believing in yourself. All the rest will fall into place.

Speaker 0[21:48]Words of wisdom right there.

Speaker 1[21:50]And love the one you're with.

Speaker 0[21:55]Thank you so much.

Speaker 1[21:56]Thank you, Stacy.

Speaker 0[21:58]For more than 30 years, procurability has been the leading provider of procurement and supply chain services, delivering best-in-class advisory, managed services, digital and talent solutions across industries. Global organizations trust us to transform their procurement operations, drive growth, and reimagine what's possible. To receive the latest thought leadership, subscribe to ProcureAbility's Insights at Procurability.com/slash insights.